Sorry about that - sometimes I can be a bit intense.

"You evaluate the way I balance caring for self against caring for others. Sounds like you think I over-emphasize myself. Well, I'm sure that's true some of the time. I don't claim to be perfect. My friends sometimes criticize me for caring more for others than for myself. I'm sure that's true some of the time as well. I "loaned" my bicycle to a homeless person and never got it back. I paid a friend's rent because he was in hospital and had no money. I let a friend live with me when his only alternative was to sleep under a bridge. But I do limit my charitable acts. There was a day when my live-in friend had to move out, and a day when my hospitalized friend had to start paying his rent. Maybe some day I'll get my bicycle back, but I'm not holding my breath. I also put up with a cat because I love her and she loves me. She isn't house broken, and I clean up after her every day. I think all of this makes a certain amount of sense in terms of noetic value. I do have a "dream" about the kind of world I think would be the best for all the living things on the planet. If I were religious in the standard way I might say that my dream is my best effort at perceiving and constructing God's plan for the world."

It sounds like you are a very caring, nurturing person. But the question is - if there is no God, then why do you do these things? Even as you describe it, these are not acts that bring a positive result to you. Why should someone be concerned with other organisms beyond gaining benefit from them?

"And isn't this a strange thread! It's on the Abortion board, and yet it seems to have gotten seriously off topic (especially the sub-thread about English spelling reform!). But maybe it's not so much off track as it appears."

All problems / concerns / issues in the world can really be drawn down to a few key topics.

"Abortion, capital punishment, stem cell research, and euthanasia are, as I have said elsewhere, about how to assess the value of human life and how to make wise decisions based on that assessment. And my theory of noetic value seems to me to be relevant. But the details aren't worked out yet, and the devil is probably in those details."

Working out our beliefs is an on-going process and I understand that. :)

"And classifying things as "imponderable" can indeed be a cop-out. I thought it was a cop-out for my Dad. But you've got to cut him a little slack. After all, he had me to deal with, and he needed some way out! I used to vex him with my persistent questions I'm afraid."

I'm sure he was very good with most questions.

"When we were discussing bears I brought up the story about the bear cubs who were shot by a human for apparently no reason. I reported feeling saddened and miserably angry when I first heard the story. No doubt abortions seem comparable to people who want to make abortions illegal. Perhaps they feel just as sad and angry as I felt over the death of the bear cubs and the mother bear's grief."

I would think that those emotions could be similar. You show a good understanding of others' emotions, and that is always a good sign for people, no matter their positions.

"I do not feel that way about abortions, and I think this comparison is something I should be able to defend. Do I love bears more than people? Do I think bears are more valuable than people? My answer is no to both questions. But I think the noetic value of those living, breathing, eating, sleeping, playing cubs had a noetic value for the mother bear and that their loss caused her intense suffering."

Are you sure that you did not also mourn their passing beyond just the pain that it must have brought to the mother. However, how do you feel about the idea of potential parents dealing with intense suffering due to the lack of abortion availability within the United States (I must admit, I've never given this much thought, so it will be interesting to see where this goes)?

"I think that for some human mothers the knowledge that they are pregnant stimulates fantasies about the baby-to-be and about its probable personality and attributes, its potential life, and the joys of motherhood. All this gives the unborn child a noetic value for that mother. All such unborn children should be born unless there are equally salient noetic values which stand against it. That is why I am opposed to abortion. But being opposed to something doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to make a law against it. I am opposed to audible hiccups at a concert, but I would vote against making them illegal."

Obviously, laws are not based (usually) on noetic value. Laws are typically created to prevent or force highly negative/positive behaviors. I understand that you feel abortions after the first trimester would fit in the "highly negative" category.

Perhaps you view it then as more negative than the irritating hiccups at a concert.

Good answers,